Revelation 12 describes a heavenly sign of a ’woman clothed with the sun’ at the time of Jesus’ birth. A theory gaining popularity states that the same constellation sign is coming Sept 23, 2017 and not ever again for a hundreds of years. Is it right? What does it mean - the rapture, the Great Tribulation, the abomination of desolation or what? Let’s examine the evidence and understand the epidemic of theories just like this better...
A Sept 23 Believer Speaks After It Failed...
I rarely get a believer in the latest false, invented, prophecy theories that is debunked in one of my articles to come back after the theory fails and acknowledge I was not wrong (after all) to warn people about it. Here's the comments of one such reader... - Tim
"On 23rd September, I went to bed, fell asleep and on 24th, as I was still there, I wondered if I had been left behind, switched my TV on, nothing mentioned. I thought the media, as usual, may be concealing that millions were missing, although this I would soon find out, by hearing of catastrophes here and there, actually everywhere, caused by the rapture. NOTHING.
September 23rd came and went. No rapture. I thought 'I wonder what the false prophets would have to say now'. Unbelievable, some came out with all sorts of answers, mixing up the order of prophecies in the Old and New Testament and now, in utter bewilderment, are advancing the new date 30th September, today. Here in England, it is 30th September, almost midnight, no rapture.
These false prophets have duped us, even using Scriptures to sustain their lies.
These last two weeks were the worst spiritually, of all my life. We suffered the intimidation of these false prophets who labelled us as mockers and scoffers, we, they said, who do not believe the Word of the Lord! They extended their accusation, stating that if Daniel had been like us, and John when he wrote Revelation, we would not have the end times prophecies.
Let alone the fact that they took advantage of the hurricanes Irma, Jose, Harvey and the earthquake in Mexico, as God’s wrath on America. North Korea didn’t help with the nuclear threat hanging around our neck! Then, the alignment of the planets, the same alignment as at Jesus’s birth, the dragon throwing to the Earth the stars and what have you.
But I have learned something, so this experience was not in vain. I am now cured of my apprehension, and will read your book again, Tim, as this is a true analysis of prophecies. You have shown insight without embroidering scriptures, showing the sequence of Old and New Testament prophecies.
A very accurate book indeed. You have shown boldness in defying the false prophets, as, had they been right, your credibility would have been at stake."
Revelation 12 In The Sky Again?
I decided to write this article after several people asked me regarding speculation that September 23, 2017 is prophetically significant. For example, one person sent me a link to an article entitled, "What Is The Revelation 12 Sign In 2017 Telling Us?" with the following question:
In two years, there will be what seems to be exactly what Revelation 12 is picturing in the constellations. This is extremely rare, even more rare than the blood moon tetrads. I think this has only happened one other time in history, which is at the birth of Jesus. What do you think this says, if it's too late for the 70th week to have started?
Ahh, the "it's very rare" card... It's fitting he mentions the four blood moons/tetrads theory because rarity was the main argument of legitimacy for that theory, too. Many people believed in the four blood moons based on that rationale. However, once the last blood moon passed, the theory was relegated to the same trash heap where all invented prophecy theories have ended up. They all fail to predict anything specific in any specific timeframe because men cannot accurately predict the future, even when improvising from a Biblical basis.
What about this one? Is being "even more rare" rare enough to make it significant and worthy of belief? Let's take a look.
Revelation 12 - September 2017 Theory
Although it does not give credit, the article referenced above is just another take on previous Revelation 12 speculation. I first saw it in a Scottie Clarke video in 2013 on his "Eternal Rhythm and Flow" YouTube channel and website. (I was informed by Mark Chiswell that Luis Vega put out the theory earlier.)
Whoever originated the theory, what it gets right is that the constellation of Virgo (the virgin) fits the heavenly woman spoken of in Revelation 12:
Revelation 12:1 — And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
Article continues below...The End In 2026? It's Now Possible
Since learning in 2001 that Yeshua must return in a Sabbath year, I've had to rule out three Sabbath year cycle windows for the final 7 years (2003-2009, 2010-2016, 2017-2023). With the next window (2024-2030) less than 7 years away, I'm ready to share why I believe, based on the real end time sign of Mt 24:14, that this can be the one. If it is, the "birth pains" (WW3 + Wormwood, Lk 21:10-11) would hit near its middle in 2026 with Yeshua returning in 2030. Find out what's changed to convince me about 2026 and what you can do about it...
The woman being clothed by the sun with the moon at her feet makes sense literally when you understand the woman as Virgo the constellation of a woman. It's a literal reference to woman (rather than an allegorical one—as Christians usually interpret Revelation). Every year somewhere from mid-August through mid-September the sun is mid-body to Virgo and the new crescent moon is at the bottom of Virgo. It literally happens in the sky just as Revelation 12 depicts.
But what about her "crown of twelve stars?" According to Clarke there are nine stars from the constellation Leo above. The other three stars are supplied by a conjunction in Leo of Venus, Mars, and Mercury, aligned with Regulus. And "Scott has looked for this formation in other years and cannot find it"(!).
Problem #1: Ignoring The Very Next Verse
There are many problems with this theory we can discuss. The very first one is typical of these theories and another one it has in common with the blood moon and shemitah theories of 2015: It's ignoring the context. Look at the very next verse tying the Woman sign to a birth:
Revelation 12:1-2 — 1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth.
If we doubt that the birth is meant literally, the next few verses dispel that. They show Satan wants to kill the son who is clearly identified as a very well-known historical figure:
Revelation 12:4-5 — 4...And the dragon [Satan] stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child. 5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne
This "male child" that comes from the woman is depicting the birth of Jesus. Who is also the one person in history destined to rule all nations (Mt 28:18; Rev 19:16; Eph 1:21) and who has ascended to heaven (Jn 3:13) as verse 5 also says.
"Caught Up" vs "Ascended?"
If you want to reject this idea because Revelation says the male was "caught up to heaven" not "ascended" like Jesus predicted of himself, then don't stop there. Consider the actual gospel record of the event Jesus referred to beforehand in John 3:13 above:
Luke 24:50-51 — When Jesus had led them out as far as Bethany, He lifted up His hands and blessed them. While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven.
Mark 16:19 — After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God
Acts 1:9 — After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight
As you can see, Jesus really was "taken up" just like it says the male child was. Yes, different Greek words are used, but the meanings are equivalent and Revelation and Luke were not written by the same author anyway nor at the same time. Jesus was the male child of Mary who was taken up to Heaven. No shoehorning needed here.
Therefore, this all connects the Woman directly to the birth of Jesus in the first century. Jesus' mother was Mary, a woman of faith from Israel. As the chapter progresses the Woman is more fully defined, as the entire the faithful church, founded starting with Israel in 30 AD, but not limited to saints with that heritage. The woman represents the bride of Christ of all nations as we know it expanded to (Gal 3:28; Joel 2:32).
"Revelation Can Only Cover Things 'After This', Not In the Past" / Revelation 4:1!
Some doubt that Mary is the woman giving birth, confused over a past event being found in a prophecy book like Revelation. They often note how John records early on in the book that an angel told him would be shown things "that must happen after this" (Rev 4:1). They expect this rules out anything in Revelation happening before John's time (90AD), such as Mary giving birth to Jesus (1 B.C. supposedly).
My response to that is twofold. First, it does not say "I will ONLY show you things coming after" The major content of book is of course future, but it does not preclude showing past events, too, which is why in Rev 1:19 John was told to write down the past, present and future from his viewing.
Revelation 1:19 — Therefore write what you have seen, what is, and what will take place after this.
Secondly, this is a book of revelation, not "future prophecy." There is much in the past that is a mystery which could also be revealed, including the key players of the righteous vs Satan and the work of Christ. This revelation from the past establishes the characters for the future part of the revelation. In other words, for John to be shown the key things in the future, some explanatory revelation of the past is appropriate and reasonable to facilitate that.
Speaking of the past, scholars have found that the sky on September 11, 3 BC to show the exact picture of Revelation 12:1, pointing to the birth of Christ on that day:
Jesus Birth 9-11-3BC (Credit: AskElm.com)
The Star of Bethlehem conjunctions before 3 BC led the Magi to depart in time to come see the baby Jesus. For more on Jesus' birth in Rev 12 and the Star of Bethlehem before that, see Ernest Martin's excellent free book.
Scottie Clarke's theory, like all invented prophecy theories, depends on taking a verse like this out of its context and re-purposing it to serve some new theory. When you ignore the context of a verse, you are likely to misinterpret it. That's how you turn a solid, reliable Bible prophecy into an unreliable quasi-biblical man-made prophecy detached from the original.
Is it any wonder that all predictions based on this approach fail?
Could Revelation 2:26 Indicate the Church is the Male Child?
I'm adding this section after a couple of people raised an objection to the above identification of Jesus as the male child of the Woman who rules all nations with an iron scepter. The following passage made them doubt this:
Revelation 2:26-27 — And to the one who is victorious and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. 27 He will rule them with an iron scepter ...—just as I have received authority from My Father
The confusion comes from how it says the saints will rule with "iron scepters" over "nations" making Jesus not the only one to fit the scepter-wielding aspect the male child's profile in Rev 12:5.
But if the church is what is intended, why does the Greek go out of its way to say the child is "male?" The church in other human metaphors is given a female sex, as in the "bride of Christ," right in Revelation itself (Rev 21:2). For this to be clear and defensible, it should have left it as "child" of unspecified sex, at least. The male adjective clashes with the church interpretation, directing you to look elsewhere for the identity. Call me crazy... but how about it being a male person like a man?
Another issue is that there is no rapture in the Bible before the Great Tribulation. Therefore Revelation 12:5 cannot be the rapture (of anyone) when the 3½ year Great Tribulation (Rev 12:14) comes later chronologically in the narrative. As a reminder, the Great Tribulation is which Satan tries to attack the church (Rev 12:13-16). Put another way, only a pretrib rapture theorist could ever entertain this theory. Those who know the rapture comes post-tribulation would have to reject this theory based on the Great Tribulation still being future both in Revelation 12 and September 2017.
The other conflict in this interpretation is what to make of the Woman who continues on after the supposed rapture of the "male child church." How does the male child "church" go on to heaven and then this righteous faithful Woman continue on earth to receive the favor of protection during the 3½ year Great Tribulation (Rev 12:14)? Is she forgotten or is the Woman is actually the entire faithful church, rather than the male child? The church giving birth to the church and splitting between heaven and earth makes no sense.
The simplest explanation for all this is that the Woman is the faithful church of God among and from whom Jesus, a male individual, was born (through blessed Mary). Jesus ascends to heaven and the faithful continue on the earth for centuries until and through the Great Tribulation.
Of course, the church later does receive the promise of glory with him "ruling the nations" (Rev 2:26) which is why Jesus is "King of kings and Lord of lords" (Rev 19:16). We are the kings and lords that he is King and Lord over once he returns from his throne in heaven (Rev 12:5) he is still on to this day (Acts 3:20-21).
Problem #2: Adding to the Bible
For me the next problem is how Clarke has added elements to the biblical text that are not there, allowed for by problem #1 in ignoring verse 2 and 5.
When he says this may be the rapture or second coming you would rightly ask, where does it say this in Revelation 12? Nowhere. It's an addition.
Why do we tolerate people adding to the Bible? Especially when it plainly warns in the same book against doing that (Rev 22:18-19). I understand why. It's mainly because they sound authoritative. Appearing on video helps. Putting your ideas in images helps. Also we assume they know more than us and who are we to disagree with someone who studies more than us? (Yes, we can thank YouTube for making so many tenuous theories that would languish in print spread wildly.)
Remember that we're called in NT to question and judge what those in the church proclaim, even when they are recognized prophets (1 Cor 14:29), proving or disproving them by Scripture (Acts 17:11). This is what I did above with my first objection to the theory.
Problem #3: The Woman's Crown Already Has 12 Stars (and More)
I think Scottie Clarke was so excited to find something (allegedly) "extremely rare" to combine with a Bible prophecy (namely, those three planets appearing in Virgo) that he missed something huge. There are already always twelve stars crowning Virgo, depending who you ask such as in the constellation called "Berenice’s hair."
Ernest Martin in his book The Star That Astonished the World cites the twelve stars as follows:
And note: Professor Thorley who reviewed the first edition of my work has shown that there are exactly twelve stars surrounding the head of Virgo as we see them from earth. And indeed there are. If one will look at Norton’s Star Atlas, twelve visible stars will be seen around Virgo’s head. They are (according to astronomical terminology): (1) Pi, (2) Nu, (3) Beta (near the ecliptic), (4) Sigma, (5) Chi, (6) Iota — these six stars form the southern hemisphere around the head of Virgo. Then there are (7) Theta, (8) Star 60, (9) Delta, (10) Star 93, (11) Beta (the 2nd magnitude star) and (12) Omicron — these last six form the northern hemisphere around the head of Virgo. All these stars are visible and could have been witnessed by observers on earth
There is no need for a "rare" conjunction of three planets to fill out the crown of twelve stars of Revelation 12. This is again another invention that is not indicated or required by the text.
Why would someone miss or ignore this fact? Because unlike the stars, the three planets are not always aligned there, which makes this event more rare. Rareness of the event you're basing your invented prophecy theory on is critical to getting people to see any significance to it (as the next section explains).
Problem #4: "It's Extremely Rare" Is Not A Scriptural Basis (or Even Accurate)
Contrary to what clearly a large contingent of prophecy news watchers accept, something being rare does not make it miraculous, divine or prophetically significant. Yes, miracles are rare and sometimes rare events are significant. But rare events like conjunctions are not miraculous or supernatural. They happen quite naturally, as rare as they are.
Importantly, the Bible never instructs the saints to look for rare events or rare signs in the heavens or rare signs of the rapture in the heavens. Some will say in response "what about the Star of Bethlehem? Wasn't that a unique event they spotted in the sky and acted on?"
It's true that the Star of Bethlehem must have been a rare event. It had to be for the Magi to see it and know it was the time to pick up and travel hundreds of miles to meet Jesus. But I can assure you they did not risk that dangerous journey just because they saw something rare or unique in the sky and decided by themselves what it meant (like our modern Christian prophecy speculators do justifying this by taking Genesis 1:14 out of its "day, month, year/calendar signals" context to make it about a "heavenly billboard of prophetic signs").
The magi must have had some authentic prophet tell them exactly what to look for in the sky and exactly what it meant: the Messiah's birth. If I knew a sign in the sky meant the Son of God was on earth, I'd make the trek to meet him, too. But how many of us would decide to leave the country because we saw something unique in the sky that no one had explained to us before?
To be sure, the Magi had much more revelation about Christ's birth sign in the sky than we have recorded in Revelation 12 to make the journey they did in response bringing treasure for a king. They had a lot more solid revelation to go on and not just weird speculation like this September, 23 2017 theory offers.
Ignore the unscriptural "rarity" argument for this and all prophecy theories. (Heck, just forget invented end time sign theories completely and listen to what Jesus said was the one precursor end time sign in Mt 24:14).
"Once in 7000 years"? No, Not Rare
You'll be glad you did ignore it when it turns out, as it often does, that the rarity claims are bogus. The four blood moons were not rare as were claimed, the same with this Sept 23 conjunction.
A (real) professor of physics and astronomy at investigated the rareness claims just going back 1000 years and concluded that there’s nothing unusual or unique about the constellation Virgo, sun, moon and planets on September 23, 2017. This same conjunction has happened at least four times already, in 1827, 1483, 1293, and 1056 (and no doubt more before then). He wrote:
So the sun in Virgo, the moon at Virgo’s “feet”, and Jupiter in the constellation are regular occurrences. This leaves the planets at the “head” (the number depending on the number of stars granted to Leo) as the determining factor in making a “momentous” celestial arrangement. Indeed, while various Internet sources speak of the specific celestial arrangement here as being “unique in human history” or “once in 7000 years”, in fact it is not unique to September 23, 2017. This basic arrangement happened before—in September 1827, in September 1483, in September 1293, and in September 1056. These are all shown at the end of this post. I only searched back one thousand years, from 2017 to 1017—there are undoubtedly other examples outside of that time period, and probably a couple examples that I missed within that time period.
You see, this alignment is not rare. Again, even if it was, this means nothing.
Problem #5: The Sun Does Not "Clothe the Woman" on Sept 23, 2017
As the picture above shows, the position of the sun does not match Rev 12:1 which says the sun clothes the woman. As the image above shows, the sun is over her left shoulder. For the sun to clothe the woman, it would be on her body. Not at her head like the crown; not at her feet like the moon. In the middle where her body is; where clothing goes.
If you want to see what it should look like, compare that to the picture of the sky on September 11, 3 BC when (I and many think) Jesus was born:
Jesus Birth 9-11-3BC (Credit: AskElm.com)
How could Scott Clarke miss this? I think the proximity of the timing of the conjunction of those planets to the Jewish holiday of Rosh HaShanah was too tempting to pass up. He stretched the definition of "clothed with the sun" to include Rosh Hashanah in his rapture theory, a huge rapture magnet always.
Problem #6: Rosh HaShanah Is Not Biblical
By focusing on Rosh HaShanah, Clarke makes the same mistake that Jonathan Cahn, Mark Biltz, John Hagee and so many pretrib rapture theorists have made. They take Rosh HaShanah to be significant prophetically when it's just as much a manmade invention as their own theories are.
Rosh HaShanah means literally "head of the year" in Hebrew. It's a two day holiday celebrated in Judaism on the first and second day of the 7th lunar month as their new year's day. That specific holiday is not in the Bible (although Rosh HaShanah does appear in Ezekiel 40:1, it is not a holiday nor indicated to be in the fall).
There is a similar phrase used when God informs Israel that the "month of the aviv" shall be the "head of the months" (Rosh Chodashim) (Ex 12:2), or first month. Aviv comes six months before the 7th month. This means that the Jewish Rosh HaShanah departs from Scripture by declaring a New Year's day in the fall instead of the spring.
Worse, this invented holy day masks the real holy day of the start of the 7th month that is found in Scripture: Yom Teruah/Day of Trumpets (Lev 23:23-25). Despite sharing the same lunar date of 7/1, these days hardly ever coincide in reality. That's because they use different calendars. The Jewish calendar is based on precalculated month starts, much like the Gregorian calendar does. The Biblical calendar uses the sighting of the crescent moon to determine months and leap months added when the barley is still not mature at the end of the 12th month. (The first month of the year requires ripe barley for the wave sheaf ceremony mentioned in Leviticus 23:11-12). This results in the true first day of the biblical 7th month (Day of Trumpets) coming in most years a day or two after Rosh HaShanah is celebrated as the first day of the Jewish 7th month.
In other words, when the rapture really does come on Day of Trumpets (1Cor 15:52=Rev 11:14-19) it will be a day or two past when people watching Rosh HaShanah are looking one or two days earlier! That's the case in 2017 with Rosh HaShanah starting on Sept 20th evening and the Yom Teruah crescent moon starting on the evening of Sept 21st. (Note that Rosh HaShanah ends on Sept 22nd evening, before the Sept 23 "sign" is supposed to be, so Rosh HaShanah does not even apply in this case if it ends before the date of this "sign.")
So you see, Rosh HaShanah is certainly not worthy of adjusting ones prophecy theories to. I will grant that it sounds good to most people who have not learned how the Jewish calendar is a counterfeit corruption of the ancient biblical calendar.
Problem #7: Jupiter in Womb of Woman 9 Months? (Try 5-6 in a Row, and 11-12 Total Not In a Row)
Another big claim for this theory is that "Jupiter is in the womb of the Woman for nine months," implying a perfect depiction of a human birth before the man child comes forth. Again, you won't find this in the text. Instead the text implies the woman is already pregnant when the scene in the heavens forms. Can you imagine a sign of a woman in the heavens clothed in the sun with the moon at her feet lasting nine months?
Don't worry, you don't have to. Author Joel Richardson is another person like the astronomer I quoted above who took the time to fact check the astronomy work of Scottie Clarke. He compared the claim to what the astronomy software results (skip to 34:00 mark). He found "9 months" was a gross misrepresentation. Jupiter actually goes in in November, 2016 and stays in the Woman only until May, 2017 = five or six months! After Jupiter exits it returns around three months later. If you are generous and allow a baby going in and out of a womb and add up the entire time that Jupiter is near or in the woman consistently by the lines of the body, you come up with a period of eleven or twelve months, not nine months. Hardly the representation of human gestation.
So...What Does It Mean?
In the end, what does this September, 2017 sign tell us? If this event is only a sign because a Christian says so, then it tells us more about Christians than it does about when to expect the rapture or anything else prophetic.
What we have, once again, is yet another example of how Christian prophecy thinkers can't seem to resist taking something from Scripture and combining it with something extra-biblical they subjectively and/or arbitrarily view as rare or significant. A Jewish holiday. A (brief) historical pattern of economic downturns. A (not so) "rare" conjunction. Or three more blood moons. =)
Speaking of the four blood moons, if you get nothing else from this article, the one point I want you to take away is the same point I made about that prophecy theory. The demonstrable rarity of an event does not equate with divinity or prophetic significance! That is the underlying false assumption of both the failed four blood moons theory of 2015 and this Revelation 12 theory for 2017. Nowhere does the Bible tell us to look for rare events for signs of the end. Instead, it tells us specific events that will start the end, which have nothing to do with Revelation 12 showing us only events from the latter half of the 70th week (Satan coming down and chasing the saints who God gathers to a place prepared for 3½ years).
Therefore, what this Sept 2017 "sign" tells us is that "the time is near!" (Lk 21:8) Christian speculation engine is still alive and well. The failed blood moon speculation just two years earlier is ignored. In fact, as someone who has been interested in prophecy since before the Internet broke out in 1995, I am a witness to that speculation increasing. More theories catch on, spread and worry people than ever before thanks to social media and YouTube. (September 2015 even saw two different biblical prophecy theories converge, a first in my recollection.)
It will either make you fed up with prophecy or make you wiser—in both cases faster than ever before. =)
Oh, and by the way, several people have mentioned a fear of dismissing rapture dates, citing the Parable of the Ten Virgins and the desire to have "oil in their lamps" when the time came. However, as this article on the Ten Virgin Parable shows, it has nothing to do with being ready by being open minded to prophecy theory inventions!
Now, if you want to know what Revelation is really predicting through the woman, see my article on the 144,000 and the Woman.
If you want to know the one precursor sign given by Jesus before the end comes, see my supporter study on Mt 24:14 The Last Sign of the End: The Gospel of Jesus Returns!
9/12/2017 Update - Wikipedia Citation
Thank you to those reading here that came from the Wikipedia article on the "Revelation 12 Sign" that quotes me from this article. I am thankful for such exposure. It helps me reach more people with the truth about these increasingly common invented, false prophecies spread on YouTube which worry believers (you should see the emails I get). This article will help you to be able to see that the "Revelation 12 sign" theory is invented and unscriptural and therefore not predictively useful. If you can get out of anxiety and fear from it now, without having to wait for September 24th, that's a win.
Some few of you will build your discernment even further with the articles on this site to be able to recognize that these signs are not just false and empty. Worse is how they distract us from the one true precursor "sign of the end" given quite plainly already in the Bible. I am referring to the one Jesus gave about the good news of the kingdom returning "and then the end shall come" (Mt 24:14). No invention is required; it says this is the global event before the end comes. Yet it does take wisdom which is hard to find to understand it. (It's easier to just invent a new sign off a verse than to understand Mt 24:14, believe me. Hence the "end time sign in the heavens" theories of recent years.)
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Tim McHyde
Tim is the author of this site (since 1999) and the book Know the Future that explains Revelation literally at last--including the key event of Wormwood (Rev 6-8). To read more from Tim and not miss a single new article, sign up for his free newsletter above.
164comments
What about the planets that are aligning? 3/22 – 4/22? This sounds very close to the question: But what about her “crown of twelve stars?”
Find these visible planets from mid-March 2022 to early April: Venus blazing in the east before sunrise; Mars and Saturn, also in the east before sunrise; Jupiter, emerging in the east before sunrise by late March or early April. Mercury will return to the evening sky by mid-April, for its best evening apparition for the Northern Hemisphere.
THEN:
and Regulus on April 12.
The lord represents the divine masculine and is Jesus, I believe not resurrected until Rev 12 appeared. My understanding of JC did come at that time. My life is a mirror of that Chapter, and Christ came the first time as John the Baptist, I believe. I also believe the resurrection was faked and was planned by the leader of the Roman Papal state, and in my opinion the spirit of the man crucified on the cross was trapped in Sheol, or hell and maybe for his own redemption method, or maybe in innocence. We shall see… that is the reference of the payment he makes for our sins, for he is one of Gods two witnesses and who longsuffered at his side, the beloved bride whom was separated from his love and the creators healing lessons. It appears to me as though during that time, he reigned in spirit form upon the earth, a soldier and lord of hosts but suffered because of the evils commited after the unlawful actions of the Roman Papal monarchy. The church and lessons of redemption were destroyed, the equality and position of the mother was cast aside… which is why the rib is the bone of her creation, because it is at his side she should stand. Christ is Mystery Babalon, and she was known as a harlot because the sacred prostitute was a barrer of the living flesh of God to come. She was chosen because of her love for the people, and her willingness to nurse them. They did not teach of the importance of intimacy btween bride and groom and corrupted ceremony which is celebration…. for ritual sacrifice.
I often wondered why John said he looked upon her in astonishment, rather admiringly it sounded. This baffled me… now I see that it was her diligent search for Jesus, and her faith that Christ was real that is the hero ofr the story. Looking at every religion in search of the true church and lessons Jesus taught was the spirit of a savior. Two witnessing saviors. Jesus and Christ…
It’s now 8 Jan 2018. Nothing happens. Can we stone the false prophets as God commanded in the bible?
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Nehemiah, this is not ancient Israel, and besides, one must ask if our motive is love per Luke 9:55.
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I think people fears to talk back to theses so called Prophets. When the 24th failed, i went to the video and said that the sign didn’t happened, so Scott was wrong and peplo need to stop supporting this theories. Than, a fan of his said that the sign DID happen, because everyone could use the Stellarium to see it… And God probably created Stellarium for this purpose.
Our brothers and sister are blind for this false prophets.
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Lol they put a few new ones now. Now they are saying the barley harvest was delayed in April. So we have to skip or add a month. So now its Oct 21-23 all the way to Nov 13
Reply Yom Kippur prediction already failed. His last video was on September 25th. After that, he gone missing. His fans are waiting for ANOTHER video, explaning the next sign.
It is just sad.
Reply Victor, yes, it’s sad people don’t move on from someone with three failed predictions…but it continues.
Reply Hi, Tim!
Well, after 23 and 24th, Scottie said somenthing about the dragon sign on 30th September. After that failed, Scottie gone missing, no updates on his Facebook page or Youtube. Even his fans are asking where he is.
Reply Victor he last said Yom Kippur now, right? That just passed. I’m sure he will come out with something else. If he has fans and views he wont’ go away as he gets paid by YouTube for views, not accuracy!
Reply Yeah, now it’s Oct 13? End of feast of tabrinacles. I dunno guys some of it sounds good but my most awkward part is. If Jupiter leaves the womb on the 13 now, even with their math, that would be almost 11 months.
Reply Victor, why do you say Scottie Clarke stopped? You mean after Sept 23, and 24th? What’s he saying now (I don’t follow him).
Reply Tim. I know you are a busy guy, but there is some thought about the Oct 13 being the rapture. we are expecting a huge meteor shower on oct 6-8th which comes from the constillation Draco the Dragon, the last feast of fall is the Feast of tabrinacles. I would like your opinion on it, as it does seem to fit into Rev 12. And Clarke made a video called Atoinment. then changed it to Atoinment through tabricacles.
I know my spelling is off i get that lol.
Thanks and God bless
Jordan do you really need my opinion on Scottie Clarke’s latest date? He just failed on Sept 23 and Sept 24. Now he has Oct 13. He actually also apologized for a previous prediction that failed. What do you think the chances of this happening are with his track record?
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Yes guys, I wonder if they make money out of this somehow? But as Tim says it leads to more traffic to his site which probably will spread the truth to more people and hopefully create more faithful believers.
Keep up the good work Tim and looking forward to more exciting articles from your side. I imagine you are very pressed for time to give attention to everything on your plate but we are with you on a daily basis supporting you to get things done.
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It always about money. Some people really like this absurd prophecies, and keep watching and watching this videos. After the failed 23th September, Scott move the date to 24th, and his fans are totally okay with his excuses. 24th passed, and now he made ANOTHER video, saying that 30th will be the day, going complete againt everything he said with the 23th videos.
What baffles me is the fact that any of his fans question this mistakes and contradictions. People keeps supporting him, and call “Scoffers” anyone who points his mistakes.
So, i think if God really speaks with someone about His misteries and prophecies, that prophecy WILL happens, because God is absolute truth.
Too bad many of our brothers are blind with this false prophets and keep following them.
Reply Glad i find this site before. And the false prophecy cant stop! Scottie moved the date to 24th September, failed, and now it will be 30th September. The man is probably insane.
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This end time prophecy simply won’t die! Now it’s being moved to Mid October. Sorry Tim, no rest for you!
ReplyThe major signs that converge on September 23 are indeed amazing, but those are celestial events. They are time markers. The mainstream media states that something visible will occur on these dates. I don’t believe that. The actual event of the beginning of the Tribulation occurs on October 15. That’s when the action starts. Hold on and watch – wait until the middle of October and I don’t believe you’ll be disappointed. – http://writers-web-services.com/
Zachary, it’s job security. Apart from the stress it puts some in, many others find my site because of these regular doomsday theory events working to good (Rom 8:28).
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I stumbled on this article by accident and so glad I did. I’m a preterist (at least partially) so I’m not waiting for a rapture but I am really interested in receiving your newsletter. You make so much common sense, brother!
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What a relief that this saga is behind us. So much time and energy wasted. What is the next one? Niburu? Same story over again? I hope not, we need to put our energies into things that add value to our lives and not these distractions. Tim, looking forward to your next article that will give us fruits and help us to prepare more for the coming Kingdom of Yehovah.
PS. I suppose all the people who insulted will now keep quiet and not even bother to apologize?
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Yeshua fulfilled the 69 weeks prophesy of Daniel and it is clear from other OT Books that the days are representative of years. The 2300 days from the Casting down of the Host, and the cesatation of Sacrifice, and Destruction of the Temple are yet to be fulfilled and there is a 40 year time span between Yeshua’s Cruxifiction and the Destruction of the Temple, so the End of Days can come anytime during this 40 year buffer period. Yeshua fulfilled the Passover Feast, and First Fruits and the Spirit descended at Pentacost, and he will fulfilll the Fall Feasts on His Return, but the Day and Hour are not known!
Shalom!
Good logic would reveal that if Christianity’s “History” is rife with extra-Biblical revelations as to Church doctrines, that the Christian version(s) of the End Times would be subject to the same embellishments. It has been my unpleasant experience since the early 70’s and the ensuing “Charismatic Renewal” of the Church that there has been a GROWING tendency of replacing Scripture with ; ” the Lord showed me. – I believe God is showing me… – the Lord is changing my ….. – the Spirit of God gave me …. – I prayed really long and hard and I believe ….. – my Pastor believes God showed him …. – ( add your own). What this has done in Full Gospel/Evangelical circles, whether folks wish to admit it or not is to place Scripture as a SECOND WITNESS to personal revelation by contorting the “Verse” to erroneously fit the personal Rev – twist.
This my friends is one of the most dangerous and most often used channels of spiritual abuse that I have seen REPEATEDLY in many sects of Evangelical Christianity. Perhaps what is being revealed by this growing tendency is the reluctance and outright refusal of so-called Believers to open the Bible and actually read and study for oneself. To quote a rather interesting statement on ” spiritual gifts” ; ” If you need a ‘word’ from the Lord or a personal prophecy to tell you to go to Africa to preach the Gospel, you had better take the person who gave you that word with you as you will need then to tell you when to come home.”
Tim has helped to teach me this valuable lesson of “research & study” through our many interactions where he has gently opened the Bible to show me my error. IN each case and almost without exception, I either took what I believed about a verse out of context OR was infusing the verse with Pastor ” So in So’s” interpretation. The Day is growing longer and the present darkness is growing BOLDER. We must grow up and take PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for our beliefs. I suspect that on September 24th I will still be on Earth and continuing to need instruction in righteousness.
Shalom & Thanks Again, Tim !
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It is no short of mind-numbing how many very prominent pastors and evangelists have taken this drawing of the celestial realm at face value without ever questioning its accuracy. This drawing is all over youtube. Not one of these well-known evangelists has even bothered to research the validity of what they are passing off as, dare I say, “gospel truth”. A cursory look at an ephemeris could have put this false theory to rest immediately. Let’s start with the woman “clothed in the sun”. Well, if they moved their date back from Sep. 23 a couple weeks to say Sep. 11-15 or so, they could legitimately say the woman was clothed in the sun, as the sun at that time period was right about in the middle of Virgo. News flash for the televangelists perpetuating this myth—the sun left Virgo at approximately 4 pm on Sep. 22. Virgo runs from late August (approx the 21st) to late Sep. The sun is not even close to the woman’s shoulder by mid September, much less by the 23rd. At best they could say the woman’s feet were clothed by the sun, but that kind of puts a damper on things as far as what Revelation says. Further still, Jupiter left Virgo about a year ago (Sep 2016) and finally the moon left Libra (the sign that puts it at the woman’s feet) on the afternoon of Sep. 22, going into the next sign, (yes a full sign away) Scorpio. Not even remotely close to the woman’s feet. Be careful fellow believers, there are far too many tv and youtube preachers anxious for you to know about their hotline to heaven and how much “insight” God reveals to them. Wouldn’t hurt if you picked up one or two of their books or dvds. For a small, voluntary donation of course.
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I grew up believing in pretrib rapture.. now i’m not so sure. One reason I believed this was because of the Daniel 70 week prophecy. The last week of years seems unlikely to happen if the church is still here.. I mean it makes sense that the church would be taken before. A few reasons would be that there is a temple rebuilt.. that means the Ark of the covenant..and all that comes with that…the veil, mercy seat, sacrifice etc. Gd seems to deal with Israel again in that prophecy and not the church. the gap between the 69th and 70th week has been 2000 years plus..I do know this..if the church is still around for the times of Jacobs trouble, we must be educated that the nephilim are not from another world.
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Chuck – This Yom Teruah thing is a little tricky. Tim correctly points out that the standard, Jewish (rabbinic) calendar is a corruption of the true Scripture-defined calendar. It substitutes a rigidly predictable mathematical rule with a 19-year cycle of “leap years” for an observation-based “random” occurrence of these years which depends on a natural agricultural stage in fields near Jerusalem, which is clearly under the control of the Almighty from year to year.
Also, the entire yearly cycle of months (1,2,..12) is shifted 6 months from the Scripturally-laid down starting point in the spring (northern hemisphere), to the fall so it actually goes 7,8,..12,1,2…6. If there were a genuine Rosh Hashanah (= Head of the Year) named in Scripture, it would be the Rosh Chodesh (= Head of the Month) for the month in which Pesach occurs, i.e. it would be 14 days before Pesach.
So much for the beginning of the year. How to determine the beginning of any month? Again, the Jews have the lengths of the different months laid down for the whole year, so once you have decided when Rosh Hashanah happens, you can work out mathematically exactly what day will correspond to what date in any year, be it 2017, 2018, 4018 25567, whatever. Convenient for business and planning, right? And Rosh Hashanah is, for the Jew, technically exactly the same day as Yom Teruah, it’s just had a massive emphasis shift by being labelled with a misleading name.
But it isn’t necessarily the same as the real Yom Teruah, it might not even be in the same (Jewish) year! This is because Yom Yeruah (= Day of Acclamation, Tumult, Shout – not necessarily trumpets) is really the first day of the 7th month and this is determined also by observation, by being the day on which the new (crescent) moon is sighted from Jerusalem. This too is a natural phenomenon and very inconvenient for those who want to believe they can control their futures. I don’t even know which day next month will start, although I know this month did start yesterday and i can make a pretty good guess when the next one will start.
When you get right down to it, living life the Torah way means living in faith and trust on the Almighty. It means handing over your future to Him in a way not contemplated by vast hordes of “church”-people. There is no conflict between faith and Torah, both are summed up in the word “obedience”.
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Wow! You seem to be very knowledgeable on these dates. Are you Jewish? I notice that the date setters have moved to Day of Atonement because apparently God tells the Jews when there is a Jubilee year the seventh Trumpet is sound then. That day is either the 30th or 31st of this month……does this help their idea in anyway? Or do you think their whole idea has just collapsed on itself?
Reply Chuck – It seems like you have a lot of questions! My first suggestion would be to take a look at the articles (the free ones) on the site—a number of questions that you posed are answered there (and by comments made by Tim). Tim has also answered the question related to the September 23rd “sign”. Based on my understanding (and his–can’t speak directly for him but he’s made this thoughts known on this site) this is a non event (prophetically speaking).
I would also contend that God does not throw out mysterious star signs hoping that people will just “figure it out” without some kind of human to tell us so–Instead, he sends an actual prophet to give everyone a fair chance to change their ways and do whatever God wants them to do–>In the case of “the end” this prophet will tell us when to leave mystery Babylon for the “prepared place”. God doesn’t come right out and say “This is how I do things” but the Bible shows that God consistently functions in this manner (from what I’ve seen anyway). Otherwise, most people would simply miss that Jupiter is leaving the womb on September 23rd as most people are not tracking the stars either visually OR through some software program. It’s a pretty vague and rather underwhelming way to communicate with Humans and it simply doesn’t seem like God’s style. As Tim as stated (there I go speaking for Tim again!) the message will be loud and clear for all who want to hear it.
Reply I am very inclined to believe you sir. But Rash Hashana is technically on the same day as the REAL Holy Day. Does that change anything? I mean even though I’m inclined not to fall for it, so much adds up. I am a little worried. The Bible does allude if I’m not mistaken, that Jesus would return on a Feast of Trumpets. Is it possible that we are wrong, and the church or Gentiles will be raptured out of here, and the Jews who need to learn that Jesus is the Savior go through the tribulation? I mean I don’t know…? I have interpreted Rev.12 as Israel being the woman, Jesus being the Child, Herod being the physical dragons puppet used to try to devour or kill the children, the 1260 days being the time Mary and Joseph along with Christ stayed in Egypt, and Jesus was caught up. The church is always described as a woman so I don’t think now they would change that into a “ManChild”, and the term “Rod of Iron” is used I believe like Ike three times, all which speak of Jesus so don’t see why that would be change now either….but man they sure have some what appears to be convincing arguments. What we do know is that this sign IS happening, what do you believe it means? Plus I personally do see why Jupiter HAS to be involved and not just a coincidence? Man….I know I’m all over the place but help me out. Plus doesn’t Paul say we meet Jesus in the air, while Mount Zion He touches the mountain? Are these two different events? Lastly as for this pre-rapture, I never believed it, still don’t I guess, but this morning while watching a William Lane Craig video on the Rapture, one woman who was pre Rapture brought up the point that when Jesus was Resurrected, man of the saints were as well in almost a pre Rapture like event? Any comments?
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Indeed. What will all you false prophets say when all the dates that you’ve predicted fall and pass by?
How many people will you deceive until your own fears subside?
Do you not know that you will be held responsible for this?
What did the Christ say? How can you forget what he said?
And so, the words of Jesus, who is the Christ, are justified all the more because of the lies you continue to proselytize.
Those of you who are the modern day Sadducees and Pharisees will be subject to answer for it. Certainly your spirits may be justified by faith, but your souls are still subject to judgment.
What good is it to read the word of God and believe it without doing its work?
Did you not read that faith without works is dead. Fear the judge and quiet yourselves.
Indeed John’s words are also justified: “Brood of vipers, who warned you of the wrath to come?” (And the when is never answered for good reason).
You lead the flock astray with these deceits. You will answer for it. And what answer will you give the Christ when you see Him in judgment?
Do not think that because you are a believer you can sin and lie at will.
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No man knows the day or time. We can know when it is close as we were given many signs to watch for. Clearly the time for Jesus’ return is very close. Discussing to try to figure the exact date is meaningless. What matters is that we are prepared and busy doing God’ work. There is no reason for any believer to be afraid, rather should be very excited for the fulfillment of God’ Word to us.
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When Sept 23 comes and passes with no rapture, Scottie Clarke will try to push the date back or say that Sept 23 just meant that now rapture can occur at any time.
But they were already saying this prior to Sept 23, that the rapture can occur at any time. They’ve always been saying it. Sept 23 doesn’t change anything.
Scott Clarke cannot push the date forward. He was very clear in the Sign documentary that Sept 23 is the only date that can work
and he checked 1000 years into the future from that to make sure. So he cannot push the date. When the rapture doesn’t happen, he will be a false prophet.
You guys just want your suffering to be over, then just go ahead and kill yourselves, The Bible is just a book that told stories from back in the day, do not read much into it. Many rapture dates have come and gone, and this will be no exception. The Rapture will never happen. EVER.
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So we will be okay on the 23rd im really scared about this i just want to know if its real or not
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In relation to your Problem#7 you have stated that Jupiter only stays in the “womb” of Virgo for a few months and leaves – actually that is INCORRECT. You may want to check the validity and indeed competency of your sources before you quote them as valid sources. If anybody would like to check this for themselves then download an app called Skyview – it plots all of the planets and major stars and constellations on any date in the past or future – actually Jupiter stays within Virgo (generally the mid section) for the duration and at no point leaves it!
Just an observation as I do not like untruth presented as facts by either side of this debate.
Astrophysics, Stellarium is the software Scottie Clarke bases his claims off. Check the validity yourself: Stellarium video here at the 34:00 mark you would see Jupiter does in fact leave Virgo after a few months. No nine month pregnancy is depicted by Jupiter.
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Hi. I’m feeling a bit anxious about what is going to be happening on September 23, 2017 with the fulfillment of the sign of Revelation 12. Can somebody tell me why?
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The “Revelation 12 sign” is nothing more than the “manifest sons of god” heresy packaged up in astrology.
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Let’s see who’s interpretation is correct. According to Clarke, the rapture will happen this week before 9/23. If we are gone, interpretation is settled and he got it right and Tim didn’t. If we are still here, Clarke could still be right at a future time or Tim is right. I don’t have perfect knowledge of all truth and neither does Tim or Scott. Scripture says the Ruach will GUIDE us to all truth. It will not all be dumped in our lap. We have to research, study, and most importantly ask the Ruach for the truth because he is only one that knows for sure. I appreciate both Tim and Scotts ministries because I believe they have enough truth to take the time to study it worthwhile
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My money is on the fact that there is NO Bible precedent of God whisking His followers away from trials and tribulations. Instead, the Bible provides us with a myriad examples of followers having to make ‘choices’ (some lead to safety—which require faith, and others do not). It makes no logical sense (at least to me) for this precedent to be altered only at the end…But if a consistent pattern of logic within the Bible is not enough for some then we should verify whether a post tribulation rapture (ie: at the end of Satan’s wrath but prior to God’s) is correct: Matthew 24:29-31.
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today is 9/16/17
bad news and very near
on 09/23/17……Israel destroyed (festival day of judgement)
on 09/30/17……US destruction begins (festival day of atonement)
on 10/04/17 thru 10/11/17 Gods violates the sanctuary planet earth ( festival of booths)
no later than mid Oct 2017 Jesus and the 144,000 quietly appear and rule over what is left.
pretty tight schedule……but with Him anything is possible.
Reply Len, thankfully none of that can happen without a warning from heaven which has not happened yet and cannot happen yet because Elijah has not appeared. A warning of that magnitude will be ignored without a powerful prophet presenting it.
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Pertaining to problem #3 and the 12 stars already in Leo. There’s actually millions of stars in Leo as well as a few galaxies. But I’m thinking what Scottie Clarke was talking about are the 9 major stars in Leo’s Constellation. http://www.astronomytrek.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/leo_constellation_map.jpg
These would be 1. Ras Elased Australis, 2. Ras Elased Borealis, 3. Adhafera, 4. Algeiba, 5. ETA Leo, 6. Regulus, 7. Zosma, 8. Chertan & 9. Denebola. You add 3 traveling stars, which are not stars at all but really planets and that would make the 12 stars. Of course, I’m assuming this is what Scottie Clarke was referring to.
Now I’ve seen these wonders in the heavens like the Hale-Bopp comet. I sat out in my front yard and watched Hale-Bopp for several nights. Absolutely amazing and beautiful. Then the 4 blood moons which one of them I watched for 3 hours driving from Buttonwillow Ca. to Santa Nella Ca. while traveling on Interstate 5, and It was absolutely spectacular. Now how strange & coincidental that the last solar eclipse started in Oregon which was the 33rd state in our republic and exited on the 33rd parallel. Then add in that Christ died for our sins when he was 33.
Nope!! I’m not expecting the rapture, WWIII, planet X to swoop by, not even the return of Jesus Christ to take place on 23 Sept 2017. I’m expecting absolutely nothing to happen, just like it did over 2000 years ago when my Lord, King, and Savior Jesus Christ was born.
Reply Here’s a great star chart program that you can down load for free. You can go to any time BC or AD and watch the movement of the stars. If you look close enough you may even find the star of Bethlehem. http://www.stellarium.org
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What are your credentials? What if you are wrong and everyone else is right?
Reply Sue, if you worry about my credentials or that I’m only a minority viewpoint and there is somehow safety in trusting in what “everyone else” is saying, then I’m afraid my answers won’t help you. You’ll just have to wait until Sep 24th and come back and ask instead, “How did you know it was false when so many believed it?”
Reply The question I always like to ask myself is “What if everyone else is wrong?” There are, by the way, countless examples where human heard mentality (decisions) has been wrong….The question we should be asking isn’t “what are one’s credentials (Is there a “I know the truth” credential???) but “Do we know enough about the Bible to discern whether someone knows what they’re talking about OR not.” Most people simply will not ask this question because it requires them to place the responsibility of understanding on themselves rather than on someone else (ie: through their credentials, etc..)…The very real truth is that we are in fact responsible for figuring the truth out on our own—Even though many on the Internet seem to link salvation with understanding Bible prophecy (they aren’t linked from what I can see) it still will come down to understanding these concepts on your own…Once you do understand it you’ll see right through the many nonsensical claims on the Internet like the September 9th claim (Jupiter will be impacted by Nibiru) or the September 23rd claim (the supposed rapture of the saints) or the various past moon tetrad claims (non of which have materialized). As a matter of fact look at all the past prophetic claims that have been made by “credentialed” individuals–they’ve all been wrong. Frankly, what I see is cherry picking (by well intentioned people) who don’t understand as much about the Bible as they would like….But given the difficulty in knowing this stuff clearly God has a plan for that as well (as per an actual prophet…Tim has an article on this as well!)—The message will be loud and clear for everyone (no matter your knowledge level of the Bible). There is no need to worry about hearing the truth when the time is right.
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A great tribulation or persecution has already happened with the early church. The early church was heavily persecuted by Roman pagans for a long time. Who knows how many were put to death
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Ok, so Revelation 12 happens in 2 weeks?
Whatever happened to Revelation 1 through 11?
lol. Amazing.
People, can you count?
Revelation is chronological (if you have half a rabbit’s brain).
Jeffery Daugherty who says he was a minister for 20 years and a professor of the Bible with thousands of hours of learning the Bible states Revelation 12 September 23rd will NOT happen and that revelation was added to the Bible by a Jesuit and there will be no rapture look him up for yourself s hes got plenty of videos out about this and other Bible subjects.
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Sorry not every 7000 yrs at all – http://earthsky.org/human-world/biblical-signs-in-the-sky-september-23-2017
Maybe just enjoy life now and stop expecting to be “saved” or whatever and hoping that “others” who don’t believe go to hell or whatever. Jesus wouldn’t be buying into this crap either. Wake up…..!
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I’m..sorry if this question was already answered above (as in I might’ve over looked it)
But I’ve been talking to someone about this theory not long ago, and they say the reason it will happen this time is because Jupiter is in the Virgo’s “Womb” and in September it’ll be in there for 9 and a half months, around how long a late-term baby is in the mother’s womb. And also “fits” because Jupiter is considered a king planet (I’m not 100% sure on that, that’s just what they were saying).
I was just wondering, adding Jupiter to everything, does it change anything?
Reply Jae, the “9 months Jupiter in the womb” is not only a contrived addition or invention (not specified in Revelation 12) but it’s also inaccurate. Joel Richardson actually took the time to verify if the Jupiter 9 month claim is accurate and found it was not; it’s 11 months and not even in a row, a duration that does not typify a human pregnancy. This is how these invented prophecies typically work, they cherry-pick or fudge data to support their theory counting on the fact that most who agree are lazy and won’t verify it first and so you’ll get away with your claims of evidence quite easily, even if someone fact-checks and proves it false.
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Too bad the Bible says that no man will know when Jesus returns. So how are we saying that September 23rd is the beginning? I thought we would never know? What’s up with that contradiction?
So which is it? We don’t know, or we do know? This is all bullshit lol
Reply The Bible states that no one “knows” the day or hour of his return (Matt 24:36)…However, this does not mean that “we” will not know WHEN the appropriate signs appear…..For example, when the Elijah appears telling people to “flee mystery Babylon” you’ll know that only so much time remains UNTIL the end. In other words, the ability to “Know” for certain will occur only right before the end (to give people the choice to act). Why doesn’t God just come right out and tell us “when” this will occur?? I would surmise it has to do with having this power in the first place–It’s God’s, and God’s alone… But He’s only providing what’s needed to give us the opportunity to save ourselves by choosing to heed His words.
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Maci, no one knew the time 2000 years ago when Jesus made that statement, but he did not say “no man will EVER know” because that is untrue.
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Gary, that’s not exactly right, forever if you carefully read what Jesus said and didn’t say in the context of the whole Bible.
Reply In listening to various points of view on Bible prophecy (most of which I believe is incorrect–except for the info on this site!) I came across a rather interesting point of view By Michael Rood (Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFtcXPeklYI). He claims that the coming solar eclipse (an “accultation” of Regulus on the feed of Juda covered by the sun/moon and in conjunction with Mercury/Mars) signifies the coming Middle Ease nuclear war)….I have no idea how this individual has come to this conclusion but was wondering (from Tim) if this was just another “made up” prophecy (ie: not Biblical)? No Bible quotes are made for this prophecy but he ends the video by then stating it may not happen–then states he’ll be traveling to Israel before this event (that doesn’t seem like a good idea). In any case, I found this interesting given this site’s view on the potential sabath cycle as being “the one”.
Reply Zachary, in debunking the Sept 23,2017=Revelation 12 sign speculation hysteria, Michael unfortunately pointed to a related conjunction to bolster up his own speculation about “Zechariah’s Thermonuclear War coming in 2017” like he teaches in his “The Jonah Code.” The only precursor sign of the end plainly given in the Bible is the return of the lost Good News of the Kingdom last taught by Jesus and the Apostles.
Reply Very interesting. Thanks Tim! However, I still continue to wonder WHY these ministers/pastors/etc.. continue to “speculate” on Bible prophecy by creating their own prophecies which are unsupported by scripture. I suppose it’s just easier to “fill in the blanks” rather than accept that there may prophetic events which have no “signs” announcing their arrival (such as the Middle East Nuclear war).
Reply Zachary, but they do have Scriptural “support” or rather feel justified at looking at these things the way they do: “If the Wise Men saw a star and found Jesus in Bethlehem based on it then why can’t a Christian today see the indicators for Jesus’ Second Coming in the stars?” What they miss is that the Wise Men had to be informed by a previous prophet on exactly what to look for and what to do about it. They did not see things and arbitrarily and subjectively decide to take an arduous and dangerous journey from Babylon to Bethlehem. And they also miss that we already have the signs of the end explicitly spelled out: Mt 24:14 and Wormwood. None of my contemporaries understand Wormwood so they ignore it and invent things based on other parts of the Bible. It all seems reasonable (I did it at first, too) until you learn to read Scripture as literally as it’s meant to be.
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Think back to Noah. They were led through the Flood, not delivered from it. When Shadrack, Meshack and Abendego (I know I spelled all those wrong) were thrown into the furnace they weren’t saved from being thrown it, they passed through it. Same with the Tribulation. We won’t be taken from it but we will endure it.
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So morons who among you are willing to give all your assets to me? Remember that this will happen less than two months from now.
Reply Just curious Krister. Are you challenging the folks who believe the rapture will occur in Sept to put their money where their mouth is?
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Why is so much energy used to come against my precious brother in Christ? (Scott Clarke) Scottie Clarke loves the Lord & has spent endless hours researching the Word of God. The rapture has to occur some day…. so why not now? Pregnant women are given a ‘due date’…. so what is the problem here. Scottie has never said the rapture was happening on Sept. 23rd. 2017; but rather bringing to our attention that this date coincides with the Lord’s appointed feast days…according to the Word of God. I pray all your eyes be opened & that you will have ears to hear the Holy Spirit & Shofar.
Reply Sandra, you seem to misunderstand critiquing an invented prophecy theory with an attack against the inventor.
Why not now the rapture? Because there are prerequisites. In other words, C cannot happen until A and B have happened. We’re still waiting for A.
Reply Regardless of how many hours one spends on researching any topic it has no bearing on understanding on what is being researched. Based on my understanding of Bible prophecy I don’t believe that the September 23rd star sign has any prophecy significance whatsoever—but like any other claim the truth will bear this out when the date comes and goes. The question of “why not now” can easily be answered (as Tim stated) if you know what to look for and how to put the puzzle pieces together.
Reply “women are given a due date” true BUT, only four percent of women give birth on their due date. so the rapture may happen before our set “due dates”. of after our set “due dates”
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There’s no need to worry. The Revelation 1 2 “sign” is not September 23, 2017. This is date setters attempting to get another one in.
There is no reason to believer the rapture will occur in our lifetime. 2,000 years have passed since the advent of the Christ. Every generation since thought they were the “last generation”. Clearly they were wrong. This is no different with us. God may indeed wait another 2,000 years. No one knows.
In any case, think about. Revelation 12 happening on September 23, 2017, does that even make sense? That’s 2 months away!!
So, how do you explain the ministry of the two witnesses in Revelation 11, that supposedly lasts 3.5 years? Obviously, this doesn’t add up. What about Revelation 6 where the stars and heavens are moved out of place? This still hasn’t happened, and there is no reason to think it will all fit in the span of 2 months.
Honestly, you have to read your bibles. Stop listening to date setters because you’ll only end up angry with God’s timing. It’ll be a while yet, most likely not in our lifetime. Why should it happen in our generation? What makes us so special than other past generations that thought they were the last generations?
I don’t think so. Do the math. It doesn’t add up.
Reply I’m guessing that the September 23rd/rapture is based on the pre-tribulation rapture view….marking the beginning of the 7 year period. What fascinates me the most is how people, who truly seem to be convinced that God has led them to this conclusion (as Jaco professes in his videos), can be so entirely wrong in their interpretations–food for thought to say the least!
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Hi, Tim. I was browsing the internet earlier when I came across something interesting.
It stated that, back in November, a comet had flown through Virgo right before Jupiter entered her (signifying impregnation I guess).
My question is: does this change your outlook on this? The fact that Jupiter will be in Virgo for nine months?
I’ll admit, this entire thing has me absolutely terrified. So… yeah.
Reply Chris, a comet changes nothing because the “great sign” of Rev 12 is connected to a depiction of Jesus’ birth in the plain text. There is no mention of the Second Coming, Rapture, Great Tribulation or anything else there. To tie this sign to anything else requires speculation and breaking plain Scripture effectively creating a new prophecy out of the mind of humans. These always fail, so don’t fear.
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If we were never to concern ourselves with “once in a lifetime” signs in the heavens that herald miraculous “God” events…..then the wise men who studied the heavens watching for the Star of Bethlehem would never have even concerned themselves with this astrological wonder/sign.
Reply Julie, you have my point about uniqueness/rare signs not being something we are told to watch for twisted and backwards in your head to somehow be a command, “DO NOT pay attention to once in a life time signs,” LOL. There is no such statement in the Bible, nor does there need to be one when there are many statements on signs to watch for. A sign is of no value if it is not unique and happens all the time. This is why Jesus referred to the end time as “beginning of birth pains.” A woman does not have birth pains throughout the history of her pregnancy. She has them only for mere hours out of 40 weeks, at the end. That’s how signs work. They must be unique, but they also must be from a prophet, not a Christian speculator.
My point is, the wise men no doubt had a prophet, maybe Daniel himself, instruct them on what to look for to know WHEN the Messiah was born, and WHERE. Else, why risk such a long, dangerous trip with valuable gifts for just a “maybe this, could be that, perhaps watch” speculation like our Christian prophecy teachers continually offer up (which has a track record of complete failure every time)? No, they had a “more sure word of prophecy” and acted on it knowing that when the conjunctions appeared, to act. Once the Messiah was born, they stopped looking to the sky for the sign they had been given. Meanwhile, Christians continue to invent new theories from what was recorded as already done before Jesus was born and was “taken” to heaven.
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Tim & Deborah
I think these September speculators commenting directly above my note here, are exactly the Authors to whom Tim is speaking. Tim stated quite clearly that he sees in the written word, this is misinformation and shouldn’t be banked on.
On the other hand, I didn’t think we’d see a comment or discussion with Tim aroused by Deborah’s writings above. I’m still looking forward further back and forth comments from the two of them.
Great work from all of you,
Blessings,
Ron
There’s no such thing as the Rapture, at least before the end times (pretrib).
The Rapture is more like a scapegoat for anyone looking to escape what is to come. If you’ve noticed throughout the lives of the Saints, they have one thing in common besides the obvious. They all suffered in some sort of way. If the Rapture was to happen, it is most likely when the time of peace comes about. In order to be a saint, one must be like Christ (not BE Christ, mind you). Christ suffered greatly so I firmly believe that suffering is one of the biggest factors into securing a spot in Heaven.
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The books Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed and The Birth of Christ Recalculated written around 1978-1982 from memory both indicated 11 Sep as the birth of Christ and the calculations are based on the astronomical events from Revelation
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Many of you might find a series of videos by Jaco Prinsloo (YouTube channel “Wes 2nd of 7” videos “#1… thru #11”) … worth considering. Also … Jaco’s book “Gods Roadmap to the end”. Not saying that I believe he has landed on THE final end-times prophetic interpretation. Since we are all members of one body and led by one spirit, there can be only one truth. Until He returns, the revelation of absolute and definitive truth might only become clearer as we approach the end. That being said, watching continuously with an open mind and a spirit of humility may be the key to a clearer understanding. In pursuit of truth, I am willing to consider may brothers voices (with holy spirit discernment); but never thinking that any one brother has arrived at the final definitive truth. I have long followed Hal Lindsey (instrumental in my and my wife’s salvation) since the early 70’s and he has had to rethink many of his interpretations also. Let us all keep searching and watching until we are with Him in the air.
Reply I’ve listened to “Jaco’s” web series as well—I can say that his “interpretation” leads us to believe that the ‘rapture’ will occur this September….I disagree with his views and I would argue that they are entirely incorrect. The literal interpretation (as stated on this website) is the way to go in my opinion. I’m not aware way to determine one’s “holy spirit discernment” other than VERIFYING someone’s claims with the word itself—the difficulty, however, is removing one’s own preconceptions and taking the word for what it states plainly (in most circumstances).
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These verses from Revelation tell the story from the time there was a war in heaven and Satan was cast out – to Israel being faithful – the coming of Jesus Christ – His birth, -His ascension to the Father, His return – Satan ‘s wrath on Israel and all Christians right up to the coming 7 year Tribulation – God’s promise to Israel to protect her during the Tribulation for 3.5 years etc, etc, etc.
The woman is Israel, the 12 stars represent the 12 Tribes of Israel. Mary (Israel) gives birth to a man child (who is Jesus Christ).
It’s Israel who goes into the wilderness where God protects her from Satan’s wrath for 3.5 years during the tribulation.
The man child is Jesus Christ who the Satan/Dragon was there to destroy from the moment He was born.
Please read the whole chapter of Revelation 12 as a whole not just 1 verse here and there to understand what’s happening.
Just in case I get lambasted for this, this is just my opinion 🙂
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Deborah, you took the words right out of my mouth. Good job. 😉 Seems so simple to me. I agree, the woman is Israel, with the 12 tribes as stars and Jesus is the male child that Israel gave to the world. The moon she stands on is a symbol for Israel (lunar calendar) and the sun clothing her is perhaps symbolic of Christ, who clothes all who believe with His light.
Catholics claim this woman is Mary. But they also say Mary was born without original sin (Immaculate Conception). But if she were born without original sin, she would have not have had the pain in childbirth that the verse signifies. Great pain in childbirth is part of the curse and not something she would have been heir to as a sinless person. Of course she was NOT born without original sin, nor sinless, else why does she call God her savior in Luke 2?
We may disagree on this, and not trying to start an argument, but imo, I believe Satan is cast out of heaven because the rapture has occurred, the Bema Seat judgment has taken place, and there is “no longer any place for him” at God’s throne as the accuser of the brethren. Of course it could be a mid-Trib casting-out also. (There could even be two raptures, one of white winter wheat (in the spring) and one of hard red wheat (in the fall), signifying the brethren who come to faith by the mid-Trib, but have to suffer some of the Trib before they are rescued.) If the Tribulation is God’s wrath, then I do see why God will exert His wrath on His Bride, especially when we see Abraham pinning God down on that score in Gen. 18. God does not destroy or afflict the righteous with the wicked and says so explicitly. (Some people object, saying the Church has suffered since her inception. But persecution of the Church in ages past and present is Satan’s wrath, not God’s. Jesus said if they persecuted Me, they will persecute you.) People say we are protected from God’s wrath in situ, but how do you protect someone from a plague of intense heat from the sun, or from inflation, or famine, or nuclear bombs going off (the elements melting with intense heat) or the stars falling from heaven, or no light of a lamp? The Bride is sprinkled throughout the world. What is to be gained by keeping the Bride here to witness all the blood and gore, including that of their family members? True, those who come to faith after the rapture will endure those things. It will be a form of fast-track sanctification and testing, to prove those who are His. Will they choose temporary comfort or eternal life? I’ve also thought that because Noah, a type of the Gentile believer, was commanded by God to enter the Ark seven days before He brought the flood of rain upon the earth, that it was an embedded hint of the pre-Trib rapture. The Ark is Christ. The physical typology will be fulfilled by the spiritual typology of the Church being raptured to where Christ is seven years before God brings the destruction by fire. That seven years will be spent, imo, in the Father’s house as the Bridal Week, consummating the wedding (whatever form that takes), followed by the wedding feast on earth at the Second Coming, where we are joined by the OT saints and the Tribulation saints, who will be priests of God and Christ for 1,000 yrs. By the way, Noah was told to go into the Ark on the 10th day of the second month.
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Revelation / prophecy is the revealing on unveiling of things. Revelations 12 is unveiling the whole cosmic picture of heavenly events. So the same sign represents the past, present and future all at the same time. The moon and the sun have to represent important characters as well. I agree that the moon most likely represents Islam, but the clothed in the sun may mean clothed in by the Babylonian/Egyptian gods (sun worshippers). Whether the skies are the sign or not if the virgin is Israel, then the picture shows a time when Israel is clothed in the sun possibly Babylonian/Egyptian worship and has the moon at her feet possibly ready to strike as well. We have been in the last days for about 2000 years…we may be entering into the last of the last days shortly. For me this discussion has woken me up again to be more aware of the need to depend on Jesus Christ for my strength and life. I doubt anything significant will occur on Sept 12, 2017, but watching history and the way the world is quickly headed makes me aware that we are nearing the end. We will soon see what happened, is happening, and what is to happen.
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Hi Tim McHyde
You said: “Also there is no “peace treaty” anywhere in Bible prophecy. That’s more speculation ignoring context.”
Let’s call it a 7 year covenant then…
Daniel 9:27 “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. “
Reply Deborah—I’m guessing Tim was using the phrase of “peace treaty” to indicate an agreement that was “public” (known to everyone). The covenant appears to be an agreement made between the actors involved and is probably secret in nature—so there isn’t going to be some external indicator which tells us that some agreement has been made.
Reply Zachary, you get it. There is no “peace treaty” in the Bible. They misrepresent what Dan 7 says about a 7 year “pact” into some public peace treaty, which is not there. It’s a private conspiracy as Rev 17 clearly details.
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I invite everyone to catch “Ready for Rapture Astrology?” It can be found on Treena Gisborn’s UK blog “Wolves in Sheep’s Clothing.”
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Revelation 21:24 (KJV) And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
It would be advised to study “Nations” Revelation.
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Tim, I’m sure someone has pointed out to you by now that your dogmatic statement in an answer above may not be quite accurate – “when Rev 12 speaks of “a male child born of a woman, who ascends to heaven and rules all nations with a scepter of iron,” and I use Scripture to show the only one who fits this description is Christ”.
It may not be accurate in that it doesn’t take into account Revelation 2:26-27 – “To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.”
The one who rules with an iron sceptre can be equally the church, ruling with Jesus during the Millennium. And that opens the possibility that the male child could be the church. But I expect you are already aware that Revelation 12:1-2 are considered key pre-trib rapture verses for this reason.
I am still wrestling with this whole thing so I would be very interested in your view.
Reply Neil, yes I covered that already in another comment, but obviously I need to update the article. So please review the new section “Could Revelation 2:26 Indicate the Church is the Male Child?”
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I’m kinda glad I saw this, it helps calms me down. However, I keep reading stuff on it and I wasn’t sure if there was any more that can be added to de-bunking it or many put more simple to remember easier?
Have you seen the “Star of Bethlehem” it went to depth about the constellation Virgo and Jupiter circled and conjoined with Regulus (compare than being in the “womb”.)
Reply Connie, glad to have helped you. No matter how many “proofs” you read, remember they are all external and added to the text! The simple fact is 1) Rev 12 says NOTHING about the Second Coming or the Rapture so the text must be read into by these theorists with those ideas already preconceived! 2) What is there instead is that the text explicitly ties the sign of the virgin to the birth of Jesus before he was caught up to heaven. If you want end time signs, go to Matthew 24 where he says “it’s a sign of the end” (Mt 24:14) rather than read a sign into a text that does not say that.
Therefore my advice to help you simplify this is to always go back to the text when you hear these new arguments and review what it says and what it does not say and to remember that what commonly passes for Bible interpretation by Christians is reading into the text what is not there rather than taking it literally as Jesus interpreted (e.g John 10:35).
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Hi, Tim. Appreciate your work on exposing yet another attempt at date setting, which unfortunately is probably not the last. I do have a quibble, however, having to do with what you say here:
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Some doubt that Mary is the woman giving birth, confused over a past event being found in a prophecy book like Revelation.They often note how John records early on in the book that an angel told him would be shown things “that must happen after this” (Rev 4:1). They expect this rules out anything in Revelation happening before John’s time (90AD), such as Mary giving birth to Jesus (1 B.C. supposedly).
My response to that is twofold. First, it does not say “I will ONLY show you things coming after.” The exciting part to mention is of course the future things, but it does not preclude showing other things, too. Secondly, the Book is a Book of revelation, not “future prophecy.” There is much in the past that is a mystery which humanity needs revelation on, including the key players of the righteous vs Satan and the work of Christ. This revelation from the past establishes the characters for the future part of the revelation. In other words, for John to be shown the key things in the future, some explanatory revelation of the past is appropriate and reasonable to facilitate that.
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It sounds to me like Rev 1:1 makes it pretty clear that John was writing about future events: “. . . to show to His servants the things that must soon take place.” In other words, these “things that must SOON take place” have not YET taken place, which means they are at least future to the time of writing.
Reply Wayde, I understand, but think that’s too narrow of a view of Rev 1:1, which again does not say “ONLY the future, NO past–whatever you think, don’t take anything in this book as past!!!”. Rev 1:1 indeed states the main goal of the book. Now, to accomplish that goal, it does no good to say, “the Dragon will persecute the Woman and go after her offspring” leaving it at that. You need to explain who the dragon is, who the woman is, what they both did to lead up to that point to understand their conflict. The backstory is needed to accomplish the goal of Rev 1:1 or it’s not a very good “revelation.”
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You would all benefit knowing the difference between a sign and a wonder.
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When Satan is cast out of heaven, it says he is filled with wrath because he knows he has but a short time. This suggests that Satan is cast out close to the End. Now if the woman is Mary, it says she is fed for 1260 days in verse 6. Verse 7 then talks about the war in heaven which results in Satan being cast out…which, apparently, is at the end. It seems odd that within one story featuring events that would not necessarily take an inordinately long time, that there would be a gap of 2,000 years between verses 6 and 7. How do you account for that?
Reply David, Revelation 12 covers events spanning around 6000 years from Satan’s rebellion bringing down with one third of the angels in Adam’s time to Satan’s expulsion from Heaven in the middle of the final 7 years. That there are several gaps of multiple thousands of years should be no surprise. The story is there to give us the background to the characters in the end time battle between Satan and the offspring of the woman/the faithful. It’s not to give a detailed history with no gaps. That’s why there is nothing covered from Satan’s fall to Christ’s birth and nothing from Christ’s ascension until the Great Tribulation.
Reply Are the woman and man child in Rev 12:13 different from the woman and man child in Rev 12:4-5?
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Tim, I didn’t see you address Jupiter entering the womb and staying there in retrograde motion for 42 weeks. I have seen someone else on the internet say this only happens once every 83 years. Your interpretation???
Reply Lindsay, there’s nothing to address really. Something being rare does not make it divine or a sign. This is a common mistake of prophecy prognosticators and theorists. Revelation 12’s woman giving birth to a man child who is taken up to heaven refers to the birth and ascension of Jesus. It’s not tied in the chapter in any way to his return, the rapture, the tribulation or anything else. People who say such things are reading into the passage an application that is not literally there. There is plenty of literal prophecy to work from that we don’t need waste our time with invented speculation like the September 2017 Rev 12 theory, yes?
Reply Mark,
Ha, thanks for caring enough to “rebuke” even if you’re misapplying it. In the NT, rebuking is not a response to someone’s sincere expression of their understanding of the Bible, but rather for bad actions like sin – Lk 17:3; 1Ti 5:20. Refute (Titus 1:9) fits better than rebuke. (Christians tend to be rebuke-happy over mere differences in Bible interpretation, so I’m used to it by now and take no offense.)
Actually, you have me wrong on hypocrisy about theories: All any of us have is theory or opinion on what the Bible means. I generally can’t prove my view of the Bible is right to anyone; it’s too interpretative of a text for that. I can only state my reasons for my views. My stating may come across more dogmatic than intended. I will continue to work on that perception, thanks. In the meantime, I think this quote has much wisdom for us all when we see an expert in a field make statements that seem to contain unwarranted certainty or confidence or dogmatism: “In the beginner’s mind there are many possibilities, in the expert’s mind there are few.”
Regarding the support for my own interpretative theory, I wish you could see the difference between the quality of the evidence I offer compared to that of nearly every theory I critique, including this one. Many claim Rev 12 refers to events (like a rapture or second coming) that are simply not mentioned anywhere in the passage! The theory requires reading into or adding to the text, not reading it literally in respect of what is there and not there. In contrast, I don’t insert anything into the passage that is not there, I only deduce the meaning of what is there already. So when Rev 12 speaks of “a male child born of a woman, who ascends to heaven and rules all nations with a scepter of iron,” and I use Scripture to show the only one who fits this description is Christ, I’m taking a different approach than most. Literal interpretation.
When you claim the passage says the child of the woman is snatched up “when born” I would suggest that you’re reading the passage too narrowly and incorrectly. It says only she “gave birth to a child who was taken up to heaven.” A run on sentence with nothing about the timing of his ascension, such as the words “immediately” or “ascends when born.” I think the point of the sentence construction is that the woman’s child is special and how he is special…(who else is snatched up alive to heaven? Christ said only himself had done that – John 3:13). The point is not A. (birth) happens then immediately B. (ascension) happens. No timing information is there or given. Therefore, it’s an assumption not clearly there in the run-on sentence construct to say it can only be he shoots right out of her womb to heaven. Her child goes to heaven is the point to take, and do note that he’s still “her child” whatever age he is when he ascends.
I hope this helps you with your misgivings about me or my approach.
Peace,
Tim
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Don, that’s a popular Christian fable that contradicts Our Lord’s very own words in John 3:13 plus what Hebrews 9:27 tells us. They died as this article shows.
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I’m mostly just confused about ONE of your comments…this…” More theories catch on, spread and worry people than ever before. ” What on earth would “worry” a Christian about the Rapture?????
Reply Mary,
First, my statement you quoted refers to prophecy theories in general, not just this one. Even this one is not specific to the rapture, but is also interpreted as tribulation, second coming or other things. Hence the worry even about Sept, 2017.
Second, even if it was just the rapture, as a person who talks to lots of believers, I can tell you many believers have doubts about their salvation in general or at least at certain times in their life. “What if the rapture comes when I’m not ready?”, they worry.
I hope you can see that not everyone is as blessed as you with confidence and excitement about the rapture or the next rapture date theory.
Tim
Reply Oh, I guess I can see that if you are someone who believes in two plans of salvation: saved by grace, kept by works. That makes sense then. Thankfully I know that works are most definitely an evidence of someone who is truly saved but nothing in me (no righteousness on my part) is what I’m trusting in for salvation, but in the finished work of Christ on the cross. But now that you explained it this way, yes, I get it. None-the-less we are supposed to love His appearing and even John, at the completion of writing Revelation said, “even so, come Lord Jesus!” I pray others will GET excited about it! Thanks for helping me to understand how they may not be.
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i hear you Mary, as i see it the same way as you; how can you not want the Lord to come quickly?? yet, there are many believers who are not walking daily with our Lord or they don’t keep their focus on Him and His Word or they are not aligning themselves with His Word…thus, they are not truly experiencing the Joy of faith/rest which is ours for the taking in this life; they are troubled and weighed down by the cares of this world and are probably not ready yet. may we be used of our Lord to pray for them and to love them and encourage them to come and follow Him.
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Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and i No longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life i live in the body, i live by faith in the Son of God Who loved me and gave Himself for me!
Those who are in Christ and Holy Spirit indwelt and convicted will look forward to spend Eternity with Jesus Christ of the Bible !
Philippians 3:20~21
But our citizenship is in Heaven.
And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ , Who, by the Power that enables Him to bring everything under His control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like His Glorious Body!
To Jesus be All Glory and Honor and Power and Praise Forever and ever Amen
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Hi Mary
You said “saved by grace, kept by works”
Fantastic, I must remember that. You don’t mind if I quote you someday 🙂
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I think a lot of us realize that we haven’t used the talents and means that God has given us to bring others to Christ and don’t feel ready to go up yet…the other reason is fear that we haven’t done enough to bring our family members to Christ and see them get born again.. We don’t want them left behind so some of the excitement of meeting Jesus sadly gets pushed away…
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Yes Mary, many Christians are worried and should be worried if we look back in the time of Noah. God found favor with only 1 person on Earth at this time. That’s right only 1. I do understand it’s different this time around because Christ/God crucified himself that we all may find salvation. But are we worthy? I also believe those that endure to the end will be saved, meaning we will probably go through the tribulation because this will be a test for us all. Every storm, or disaster that happens either makes us stronger or weaker. WHat ever happens Mary, don’t get the Mark of the Beast in order to eat or drink water. Find other ways. May God protect you and us all.
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Hi, is this about the time we possibly might be seeing planet x (nibriu) aproching to pass between the sun and earth.
Reply Ray, There is no Planet X/Nibiru as I have covered before. Wormwood is what is prophesied and it can’t come till 2026 at the earliest.
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As I understand it, “the Man Child” spoken of in Rev 12:5 cannot be Jesus of Nazareth, given the fact Jesus Christ was not “snatched away or taken by force “(Gr: harpazo) to the Father in Heaven . Compare with 1 Thess 4:17.
Reply Vader, Who says Jesus was not taken by God to heaven? I don’t see anything in Luke about his departure that would clearly contradict the word harpazo. It says, after all, Luke 24:51 “While he was blessing them, he left them and was TAKEN UP into heaven” (!).
The rest of Rev 12:5 “And she brought forth a man child, who is to shepherd all the nations with a rod of iron” leaves no doubt that this man child is Christ. The combination of features is too distinct to admit of doubt, it is the one who will feed His flock like a shepherd (Isaiah 40:12), who is to have, not His own people, but all nations as His inheritance (Psalm 2:7-9), and whose rule over them is to be supreme and irresistible.
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Sir: since you wrote this article we now know this sign as it appears in Sep 2017 has not occurred within the last 6000 years or look forward 1000 years.
Reply Jafo, it’s a common Christian fallacy to assert that rarity of an event gives it prophetic significance. Nowhere in the Bible does it say to look for “rare events” or “events in the sky” as “signs”. It’s too subjective and ambiguous to convey anything meaningful, just as you admitted by saying we may not know what it means. It may still be appealing but it’s nothing more than natural, humanistic, subjective reasoning, rather than the instruction of Scripture on what to look for in the end times as a sign. The end time signs are indeed specified already elsewhere, so why not just consult those passages instead of inventing new theories?. (A: Because few can understand them literally..)
The truth is that the 2014-15 eclipses were predictable, natural events. The conjunctions of 2017 are as well. To assign significance to them requires 1) to invent a concept that rarity equals prophetic significance and 2) to take Revelation 12:5 out of its natural context with Jesus’ birth and read into it an end time timeframe. But there is no mention of the end times there. It was a great sign at Jesus’ time and it indicates nothing more than that in the plain text.
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Dear Tim,
Also seeking clarification. What I don’t follow is why God will show John a vision of the first coming/birth of Christ in Revelation 12. When the book is all about things that are about to happen.
I also don’t get your view on Rev 12. Can you expose and not only refute?
God Bless.
Prince
Prince, I’ve updated the article with a new subheading under problem #1 to explain why there is “revelation” on both the past and the future in the Book of “Revelation.” Also see a new conclusion paragraph linking to the article explaining the Rev 12 prophecy.
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Prince, You are right. Their argument that this sign is about Jesus’s coming the first time doesn’t hold up.
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Tim,
I am new to your site and have been looking closely at Rev. 12 and 23-Sept/17 as well. Have you done any level of research into a Rabbi Judah Ben Samuel, stated as a 12th Century writer from Regensberg, Germany?
Some writers suggest a connection of the two.
With thanks,
PR
Reply Pastor Rich, http://escapeallthesethings.com/judah-ben-samuel-prophecy/
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Once again you answered the context of the Revelation 12 and the September 23,2017 theory as some have tried to make it a true prophetic event. I have found when I come across something such as this, the Holy Spirit seems to direct me to you for Scriptural clarity. Thanks be to Our Father for His covenantial promises to those who seek the Truth. Have a blessed 2017 and I look forward to your continued ministry to the body of believers.
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Hi Tim,
I would like to invite you to be on my show, The Awakening Report to talk about your book
Sincerely,
Doug
Reply Would be happy to after I finish a few pressing matters with my website.
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Could the ‘Sign of the Woman’ in Revelation 12 represent the heavenly sign indicating both the First and Second Coming?
Verse 2 and verse 5 points to the birth of Jesus the Messiah from the ‘woman’ representing both Israel and Miriam while verse 5 also alludes to the Ascension of Jesus followed by verse 6 which would appear to point to the Jewish nation fleeing to Selah/Petra (the wilderness) at the half way point (1,260 days) of the seven year faux peace covenant mentioned in Daniel 9:27.
Side note: Regarding the ‘gathering of the elect’ recorded in Matthew 24:31, I would have to hold to the ‘post-trib’ interpretation as Jesus Himself had prefaced this event with His remark ‘Immediately, after the tribulation……’ (Matthew 24:29).
It appears you’re not ‘pre-trib’ as well, so that is something we share in biblical eschatology.
I’m on a quest to study and better understand this ‘Sign of the Woman’ in Revelation 12 as well as other eschatological topics. As I read and (best as I can) understand it, the early portion of Revelation 12 just doesn’t seem to merely point to the First Coming alone.
I’m not given in to dogmatism regarding the more difficult biblical passages dealing with eschatology, so I’m analyzing the interpretations of other believers who subscribe to a conservative theological position. And so I am humbly seeking to understand the ‘end-times’ prophecies more fully as it appears the times we live in – Beginning of Sorrows? – could very well possibly/probably be those ‘end-times’ written in scripture so long ago.
Just to clarify, right now I hold to my interpretation that the ‘Sign of the Woman’ signifies both the First Coming and the approaching Second Coming.
In the context of both the First and Second Coming, verse 6 points to the ‘woman’ (Mary/Israel) fleeing to ‘the wilderness’, which for Mary was Egypt following the birth of Y’shua; but for Israel will be Selah/Petra upon the son of perdition entering the third Temple, which will occur at the half way point of the seven year faux peace covenant – a UN resolution to create Palestine, divide Jerusalem and allow Israel to build their third Temple on the north side of the Muslim Dome of the Rock Shrine in accordance with Revelation 11:1-2?)
I believe this ‘Sign of the Woman’ could very well mark the time of the signing of the faux peace covenant written in Daniel 9:27 or the halfway point of the Daniel 9:27 covenant.
The Second Coming of Jesus would occur after the tribulation of those 1,260 days. Daniel 12:11-13 also provides some interesting information in possible relation to the Second Coming.
Reply Revelation 12 is completely chronological in context. The end times begins in verse 7 with Satan being cast out by Michael (yet future). Therefore, there is no space in there for the sign shown at the beginning at the birth of Yeshua to happen again, in the end times at his second coming. It’s just speculation that says this. Also, we have elsewhere in Revelation and Matthew 24 the signs of Jesus’ coming. No need to insert it into this special chapter.
Now is not yet the “beginning of sorrows” Jesus spoke of because we are not seeing “earthquakes in all places” yet. See http://escapeallthesethings.com/sign-of-jesus-coming-end-age for more on that.
Also there is no “peace treaty” anywhere in Bible prophecy. That’s more speculation ignoring context. See http://escapeallthesethings.com/antichrist-myths
Hope this helps.
Thank you for your work on the subject. I am also trying to figure out the Revelation 12 Sign, but which also seem to point to the future. Then;
Have you ever though of a celestial body – brown dwarf – planet X (9) – Niburu between earth and sun for three dark hours on the day Jesus died on the cross followed by eathquakes, – as the great read dragon ? Could it be the same “planet” during time of Joshua when the sun appeared to stand still (gravity) with more people killed by meteors than in battle ? It seems that “The winged destroyer” is a highly real body ref. Sky News, RT-News, China B. News.
Picture after 7 min. 10 sec. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxmUnhJqcEI
Could it be that Jupiter, the king planet, will be hit by planet X after it leave Virgo ?
How then do you view Israel in Bible prophecy ref. to UNESCO vs. Mt.Moriah
and UN against settlements in Judea and Samaria ?
Then man has turned the colours of the rainbow against God celebrating same sex marriage when braking the very circle of live ref. Days of Noah ?
It seems that the wrath of the Lamb is to be poured out and shall we not be delivered as the church of Philadelphia ( the early church fathers believe in rapture as Polycharp, Ireneus ) ?
– For Zion’s sake I will not keep silent, and for Jerusalem’s sake I will not be quiet, until her righteousness goes forth as brightness, and her salvation as …” Isaiah 62.1
“Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home ….” Council of the League of Nations which UN failed in 1947 in spite of UN art. 80
Reply B.W., I considered dwarf planets but now I’m convinced it’s a dwarf planet. See http://escapeallthesethings.com/ninth-planet-prophecy http://escapeallthesethings.com/planet-7x for more of my thoughts on this from my book Know the Future.
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How can the Rapture or the Lord return in Rev 12:1 When the church has been Raptured in Rev 4:1 where it reads: After this I looked, which speaks about the church being in heaven , or the Rapture. And behold a door was opened in heaven this gives John the ability to see what is taking place. And the voice which I heard was as it were a trumpet talking me which said, come up hither, and I will show you things which must be hereafter. this voice is Jesus speaking after the church has been Raptured, so as you can see Rev 12: 1 has nothing to do with the Rapture, the church was Raptured in Rev 4:1 Rev 12:1, is sparking of the birth of Jesus, and the nation of Israel. at this point we are in the middle of the great tribulation where all the judgements fall on the wicked. and Antichrist is ruling, this is when he breaks his treaty with Israel.
Reply Leo, agreed, there is no rapture in Rev 12. But I hate to break it to you, but there is no mention of the rapture or reward of the saints in Rev 4, either. John went up to heaven. John. Not the church. John. The rapture is found in Revelation at the 7th trumpet (Rev 11:15,18).
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“Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty” on Google is a great insight into many leading pretrib rapture teachers! http://www.poweredbychrist.com/Pretrib_Rapture_Dishonesty.html
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I asked a question in a prophecy conference to Zola Levitt. I asked him what was his number one reason for believing in a pretrib rapture. he said “that it has to be a surprise. Then he explained that the prophet Daniel explained that Jesus would arrive 7 years after the Jewish people sign a peace treaty with the Antichrist. He then said an angel said blessed is he who waits the 1440 days. So he said anyone on the tribulation could know the date of the end of the tribulation. He said that meant there had to. be a return that Jesus spoke about that no man could know the date. What do you think about Zola Levitt’s response?
Reply Tim Jordan, I love your anecdote! Zola Levitt’s answer gives an authentic demonstration of just how nonexistent the Biblical support is for the “pretrib rapture.” Rather than give the answer I would give that “The #1 reason for believing the post-tribulation rapture is Scripture, plainly read! Jesus and Paul plainly taught Antichrist/Tribulation ‘first,’ and gathering/rapture ‘after.’ Every Bible verse talking directly on the rapture or the near-simultaneous first resurrection explicitly affirm this order in any Bible.”
Because there is no verse plainly supporting pretrib (as some pretrib rapture teachers even admit), Zola had to invent something, as all must do. “It has to be a surprise,” is an invention. You won’t find that in the Bible. You will find only that at the time of Jesus “no man knows the day or hour.” That will change. Paul instead said it won’t be a surprise to us (1Th 5:4) but only on those alive still under the Antichrist when Jesus comes (1Th 5:2-3). Those under the Antichrist have the mark which completely deceives them and even involves mind-controlled (nobody can repent Rev 16:9,11), so yes they will be surprised after 3.5 years of rebuilding the world by Satan’s design.
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Dave McPherson has been writing books since the 70’s regarding the pretrib Rapture. He writes also that his dog talked to him….
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I am not sure that I understand what you are saying.
One scripture says that we meet Jesus in the clouds
& another that He comes back, with the saints wearing
white linen & riding white horses. I believe that there is
a rapture.
Joann, there is no pretrib rapture, but a post-trib rapture before God’s wrath when we meet him in the clouds and then 10 days later come back on white horses with him after the marriage supper in heaven.
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Tim,
Thank you for your insights. I, like you, have been interested in Prophecy since well before the Internet’s inception. I enjoy reading and studying ideas as compared to the true scriptire daily and try to function as the “Berean” we are called to be.
Thanks again for your insights.
I’ve been feeling scared about this. I thought the end is about to happen.
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Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ…..
I have been a solid follower and servasnt of our Lord and
Savior Jesus Christ and we ARE living in the last DAYS!!!
If I can say only one simple thing…PLEASE JUST KEEP YOUR EYES ON JESUS…HE IS..I REPEAT…HE IS COMING…LIKE A THIEF IN THE NIGHT!!!!!! AND SOONER THAN WE THINK…STOP ALL THIS DEBATING!!!!!! THE WORD IS THE WORD…KEEP YOUR HANDS TO THE PLOW..LOVE OTHERS AS HE LOVES US AND KEEP MARCHING ON…DON’T BE LEFT BEHIND!!!!! LOVE, YOUR FAITHFUL SISTER IN OUR PRECIOUS LORD JESUS…VALERIE
And furthermore…. LOVE THE LORD WITH ALL ALL ALL YOUR HEART, ALL YOUR …..M I N D… MIND…AND ALL YOUR STRENGTH. AND LOVE OTHERS MORE THAN YOURSELVES!!!!! IT IS NOT HARD…IT IS COMMANDED!!!!
ALL THIS REVELING AND DEBATING IS GRIEVING THE HOLY SPIRIT!!!!
LET US USE OUR TALK TO WIN SOULS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SO MANY ARE DYING IN THIS TERRIBLY DARKENED WORLD!!!!! ET US MARCH ON
PEOPLE OF GOD…AMEN AND AMEN
Valerie,
Christians cannot love with all their heart and cannot love others but only wealth. The way Americans with the Israelis are killing Muslims all over the world proves that Christians actually practise a false religion.
Wow explains a lot. I’ve always thought that revaluation was wrote to tell what has already happened. So much to learn & understand when wrote so long ago & things have been added & taken away. Even I didn’t know about all the books taken out, not sure of which ones and why they took the book of Enoch out. Never really read the whole book but wonder why they took it completely out and who done this.
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I would love to see more teaching in the contemporary Christian church that there is NO rapture, biblically. The event described in 1 Thessalonians is an attempt to answer the question: “what happens to the dead when Christ returns?” see 1 Thes 4:13. The event described is the second coming, and will definitely NOT be a secret 1 Thes 4:16.
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I’m astonished that all of you seemingly intelligent people can take what’s written in this book so seriously. There is never going to be any rapture. Humans made all of the stories in that book up in order to control the behavior of other humans. The world will end when the earth is enveloped by the expanding sun as it dies. No humans will witness the event as it will occur over 7 billion years from now. I can’t imagine how many great things you all could accomplish if you put all of this energy arguing about a work of fiction from over 1500 years ago into projects and ideas to help people. You are all better than this!
Reply I have to admit I once had a view very similar to yours. Our “material” reality was all that really mattered–as it was the only thing that could be verified (in my mind anyway).
You see, there is a question that everyone asks themselves whether they know they’ve asked that question or not and that question is this: Is THIS all there is? Is who you are simply matter (ie: just material) OR is there something more to you. This question is profound as it invariably leads to the concept of “choice” itself. If we are in fact just only an arrangement of matter (a pattern of information) then the idea of choice literally goes out the window–We are all in fact slaves to an unknown (and random) process of biology and upbringing (neither of which we have any control). Choice becomes an illusion wrapped in material determination.
However, if you believe you are MORE THAN just matter then the concept of free will and choice become a reality. Choice (or will) becomes a foundational concept of being “human”. No longer are we bound by the material world but have in fact become freed to “become” something more…This appears to be what many humans aspire to: To be more than what they are (more than the material itself). Strangely enough, this very question is the one posed at the very beginning of the Bible…With Adam and Eve.
Now none of what I’ve said really “proves” anything but I believe it’s a question that many people here have already answered for themselves—The only proof that “believers” can show is a change in there very actions (which appears to be missed by Christianity in general).
In any case, it sounds like truth matters to you (and I think that’s good). You cannot come to the truth without questioning everything. Not to speak for everyone here, but I think the “hope” is that the truth will reveal itself to everyone eventually….and that this truth is, and will be, far better then the world view that humans have been experiencing for thousands of years.
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So what proof do you have that the Bible is a book of fiction? If so, name one part of the Bible that has proven false. Care to explain why we have a sense of right and wrong if there was no creator.
Reply Yeah that’s probably the best here. Though then again it is interesting how the sceptics claim the Bible is a book of fiction yet when asked they are silent.
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